tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20011302.post609102596096593130..comments2023-06-27T04:57:18.487-04:00Comments on Backwoods Presbyterian: What is an Idol?Benjamin P. Glaserhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02728290792232181473noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20011302.post-7228165999344793252008-03-19T13:53:00.000-04:002008-03-19T13:53:00.000-04:00Toby,But the problem is that it is not an actual t...Toby,<BR/><BR/>But the problem is that it is not an actual true representation of Jesus so therefore it a false representation of Christ and therefore a false deity. <BR/><BR/>Timothy,<BR/><BR/>Thanks. I look forward to being able to study idolatry pretty hardcore. This is one example of a serious lapse in judgment by those who claim to be of the Reformed orthodox ilk. Your citation of LC #109 is spot on and I would agree wholeheartedly of your critique of the ARP seal.Benjamin P. Glaserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02728290792232181473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20011302.post-28134210538373543412008-03-13T12:14:00.000-04:002008-03-13T12:14:00.000-04:00good post. I agree that whenever we try to make an...good post. I agree that whenever we try to make an image of Christ, we are robbing Him of His glory and do not do Him justice. Nothing good can come of it.<BR/><BR/>As for stained glass, I've seen quite a bit in my 7 years as a PCA pastor. One church in Dyersburg, TN actually has a Tiffany stained glass window of the mother and child. It was left to the church, along with a large endowment to build a new sanctuary. So the built the new sanctuary, which they didn't need, and had the Virgin Mary stained glass window placed so high in the sanctuary, that you get a sore neck if you look at it for too long. <BR/><BR/>BTW, they are trying to sell the window, which is valued at more than a million dollars. They've decided they no longer need it. I say that's a great decision on their part.Timothyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05701766558833763752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20011302.post-64305260801440611902008-03-12T12:55:00.000-04:002008-03-12T12:55:00.000-04:00I heard a new argument for images of the earthly m...I heard a new argument for images of the earthly ministry of Jesus:<BR/><BR/>He had a body.<BR/><BR/>We cannot make images that try to depict the Godhead, certainly. But the question that I think we should address is whether or not a painting or stained glass window showing Jesus hugging children or teaching in the Temple, when off to the side of the sanctuary, constitutes idolatrous worship.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20011302.post-18251890764636143182008-03-04T22:45:00.000-05:002008-03-04T22:45:00.000-05:00What about a big gold Jesus?What about a big gold Jesus?ChipBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12325884786563515302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20011302.post-67552029189872640402008-03-04T10:27:00.000-05:002008-03-04T10:27:00.000-05:00At the most basic the problem I have with 95% of S...At the most basic the problem I have with 95% of Stained Glass are the images depicting Jesus. Now this is not to say that all stained glass is ok as long as you do not have a Jesus figure in them but I can tolerate stained glass in general, but the preference is to not have any at all. that depicts human beings in the sanctuary.Benjamin P. Glaserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02728290792232181473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20011302.post-56560289813907566752008-03-04T06:37:00.000-05:002008-03-04T06:37:00.000-05:00The original intent was to use pictures to explain...The original intent was to use pictures to explain the Bible to the uneducated masses but even I prefer Old Stone except for on pretty Spring Days it is awful hard to pay attention when the birds are flying around outside. The Clarksburg church is unusual with the buried pastor in the wall. Just like England huh :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20011302.post-27302772378160381172008-03-03T19:48:00.000-05:002008-03-03T19:48:00.000-05:00I agree Chip. The only PC(USA) churches that I kne...I agree Chip. The only PC(USA) churches that I knew of in West Virginia that had stained glass at all were the Northern churches that had been members of the UPCUSA.Benjamin P. Glaserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02728290792232181473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20011302.post-3805228692886075822008-03-03T19:35:00.000-05:002008-03-03T19:35:00.000-05:00This is quite an interesting discussion. I had nev...This is quite an interesting discussion. I had never been in a Presbyterian Church with stained glass images of Christ or the Apostles until I moved to Pittsburgh. Most of the churches I have been in are either very plain with large clear windows or they have stained glass windows with symbolic images - anchor, fish, etc.ChipBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12325884786563515302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20011302.post-78267939810131269882008-03-03T18:49:00.000-05:002008-03-03T18:49:00.000-05:00Well make sure to found a congregation and serve i...Well make sure to found a congregation and serve it for 30 years. <BR/><BR/>BTW<BR/>(Do not forget to have yourself buried in the basement).Benjamin P. Glaserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02728290792232181473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20011302.post-53697028170065794502008-03-03T18:08:00.000-05:002008-03-03T18:08:00.000-05:00So you mean that I could be a stained glass window...So you mean that I could be a stained glass window someday?<BR/><BR/>Wow. I had better keep the sermons good!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20011302.post-2350610661867999012008-03-03T08:42:00.000-05:002008-03-03T08:42:00.000-05:00One more thing. It would be quite Reformed of me t...One more thing. <BR/><BR/>It would be quite Reformed of me to say that anything that distracts (whether positively or negatively) from the preaching and reading of God's Holy Word is in itself idolatrous.Benjamin P. Glaserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02728290792232181473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20011302.post-21319512576463863172008-03-03T08:34:00.000-05:002008-03-03T08:34:00.000-05:00Reformed Catholic,Well the great stained glass in ...Reformed Catholic,<BR/><BR/>Well the great stained glass in Saint Giles was post-Knox. In fact they were put in during the 19th and 20th century (see Toby's words on the Anglo-Catholic revival).<BR/><BR/>Drollord, <BR/><BR/>One of the worst ones I know of off hand is in the Presbyterian (USA) church in Clarksburg, WV that I grew up in. There is a larger than life stained glass of the first minister of the congregation. It takes up the whole back of the Church. I preached there once and it stares right at you the whole time you are preaching (kind of the point I assume). <BR/><BR/>Toby,<BR/><BR/>Speaking on the home issue I would say that it would not be prudent to have pictures of a representative Christ in your home but that is a matter I am willing to place in the liberty of conscience box. I myself have no crosses or pics of Jesus in my home. <BR/><BR/>I agree with the neo-Romantic movement being a large cause for this. I have been to several churches built prior to 1850 where it is patently obvious that stained glass was placed in well after the church was built. To me there is nothing more aesthetically pleasing than sunlight pouring through the plain windows of my Grandparents church (which is the one on the top of this blog). Even when I was a child stained glass windows seemed obtuse. <BR/><BR/>As far as the biblical warrant towards idolatry I would agree that if one just looks at Exodus 20 or Deut 5 it would seem as if the worship of idols is forbidden, not just their construction, but I believe that if one looks more fully at the record of the Old Testament especially (Cf: Lev. 19:4, 26:1, 2 Kings 23:24, Psalm 115:4, 135:15, Isaiah 2:8, 42:17, Jer 10:14, Hosea 8:4, 13:2, and Habakkuk 2:18) one will see that not only is the worship of human-made (physical or spiritual) idols forbidden but even there construction is denounced by God and his prophets. Calvin says that anytime you fashion a physical representation of Christ you bring the divine into relationship with a fallen object (interestingly enough both Paul and Calvin equate sexual immorality with idolatry).Benjamin P. Glaserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02728290792232181473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20011302.post-70846219981833980642008-03-02T23:59:00.000-05:002008-03-02T23:59:00.000-05:00I've thought a lot about this topic. I'm not an ex...I've thought a lot about this topic. I'm not an expert, but I've done my fair share of Reformed reading about this.<BR/><BR/>I think it certain that your research will show that the impetus to add images of Christ, the apostles and some saints to our churches was after the neo-Romantic, Anglo-Catholic revival of the early 20th century. I think this reflects our cultural captivity: We simply wanted to do it because we liked the aesthetic.<BR/><BR/>Why else make so many churches in the Gothic style??<BR/><BR/>The stained glass and ornate woodwork, with a big pipe organ are all vestiges of that movement. It may have taken 20 or 30 years to take root in the Presbyterian churches--as opposed to Episcopalian ones--but we took the idea when enough of our people forgot why we did not do such things.<BR/><BR/>Pretty typical of mainlines in general.<BR/><BR/>But that being said, I think that now that most of our churches are stuck with images of Christ in our sanctuaries, one would be hard pressed to say that these images (when off to the side and not the focus of the sanctuary) are idolatrous and need to be taken down.<BR/><BR/>The biblical warrant seems to revolve around worship of images, not the existence of them. This is the reason I won't bow in a Roman church, to any statue or the like. I worship the Lord alone.<BR/><BR/>But certainly, the image of Christ--in the imagination of an artist--seems to not be a good fit for a Reformed church. The fact that most of our churches have them is testament to our ignorance of what makes us Reformed and where we come from. Bad? Yes. Idolatrous? I don't think so.<BR/><BR/>But tacky can be a sin in the Lord's house, certainly.<BR/><BR/>What about Christian homes? Must we take down our Last Supper black velvet paintings? What about our crosses, our Rembrandt posters? Would our home be 'less sacred' than our church?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20011302.post-50066558180064836242008-03-02T22:30:00.000-05:002008-03-02T22:30:00.000-05:00Considering the great stained glass windows depict...Considering the great stained glass windows depicting Christ and the apostles in St. Giles Cathedral in Edinburgh, I'm wondering what Knox has to say?Reformed Catholichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15582319442292078422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20011302.post-12487203298531101842008-03-02T22:21:00.000-05:002008-03-02T22:21:00.000-05:00A silly side note:I know of a church here in the G...A silly side note:<BR/>I know of a church here in the Grand Rapids area that has a stained glass window depicting the "I stand at the door and knock". A RPCNA minister I know commented that it's a portrayal of David at Bathsheba's door.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com